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Does Vitamin C help with dog snake bite?Our Vet's have divided views on using Vitamin C for snake bite first aid. One says it will make no difference. The other Vet says it can help to 'buy time' which you need to get to the surgery for the snake anti venom. When I pushed him recently for more detail on this opinion he admitted there was no evidence of it helping to save pets and as it does not real harm he has no problem agreeing to use it ONLY if the pet is on its way to the clinic for the anti venom. I have had Vitamin C information on my website for two years now and recently received the following information from a very experienced goat herder who has documented many experiences of snake bite from his local area. As a direct consequence of his information plus other stories I no longer support the use of Vitamin C for snake bite. I am not going to take part in an ongoing discussion, I have made up my mind and place the information here for you – as the pet owner – to make your own decision. We have thrown out our Vitamin C bottle and syringes. The traditional snake anti venom is very successful in treating dog snake and seems to be the pets only hope of survival if the bite is serious enough.
Having a herd of goats from 200-350 at times we have seen our fair share of animal husbandry and health issues. On the snake front, like many of the club, we used Vitamin C injections. On the 10 occasions we used it over many years ( and yes it stings like hell, they certainly bellow a lot), it did, on the face of it, work in 6 of the 10 cases, so you'd think 60% success rate, right?
That sounded great but, I'll tell you why we don't use it any more, and as you all will find in due course, why no one should use it for snake bite. This is over a10 year period so don't think we have plagues of snakes everywhere! Two of our goats got bitten by a brown snake in the shed (I saw them both being bitten). I treated both with Vitamin C and took them both to the Vet.) and indeed it was confirmed at the Vets (counted the face scales) as a brown snake. Goat 1: By the time I got her down there, she was frothing at the mouth and on her side. Knowing it was a brown snake with such quick advancement of signs, he said she would die unless we used anti-venom. We declined due to cost, and I guess a feeling that the Vitamin C would save her. She died 4 hours later, a horrid death- you don't want to know. So the Vitamin C did nothing. Goat 2: She wasn't bad at all at that stage, just agitated and distressed. I know she had been bitten by this brown as I saw the strike. The vet used the snake detection kit to test her, and she was negative! GREAT that is, she had no venom in her...he said that means the snake gave her a dry bite or the bite ejected in the thick hair. So no need for anti-venom and she would recover with no treatment, and sent us home. As he predicted, she recovered fine, because she didn't get any toxin into her system in the first place! How many people would have attributed her "recovery" to Vitamin C and told all their friends that they saw the goat being bitten by a brown snake and it recovered with Vitamin C? This is how these old wives tales become perpetuated. Not all bites get their target, not all are venomous, and many are dry! By the way, she developed a large swelling at one of the Vitamin C injection sites. It was a sterile abscess, in other words no infection, just a reaction to the Vitamin C preparation. It required lancing and frequent cleaning until all the dead tissue dissipated (after all Vitamin C is an acid). All came good by 8 weeks, but she never grew her coat back at that spot. Goat 3: got bitten by a snake in the goat shelter. I gave her Vitamin C injections immediately. I was sure it was a brown, it slithered away, but I got it and threw a thick tarp over it and took it to the Vet. The Vet naturally didn't want to risk his own safety examining a live brown so he called in a snake handler. In the meantime the goat was anxious and holding up the leg which was bitten. The Vet felt since she wasn't showing any serious or advancing symptoms, she may have got only a small dose of toxin or perhaps the snake wasn't a brown at all. The handler eventually identified the snake as a non venomous one! The vet sent us home and aside from a sore leg for 3 days (where she was bitten) and painful neck where I gave the injections, she was fine! She recovered not due to Vitamin C, but because the snake wasn't venomous in the first place!
Goat 5: Buck kid, found lying on his side paddling. Nest of small browns found 10m away. Vitamin C injections (boy did that hurt in a small kid). Died that evening. The Vitamin C did nothing, except again, add to his pain. Goat 6: Brownish snake seen sliding away from a doe. Doe thereafter quiet and moves slowly. The doe was very valuable to us, so concerned at the possibility of brown snake bite, we gave her Vitamin C injections. Took her to the Vet, they took urine for testing for snake but no result till tomorrow. She improved that evening at the clinic. Test results were negative so it wasn't a snake bite after all! If we hadn't paid the money to have her tested and found out that she had no venom in her system, we could have easily felt and told everyone that Vitamin C cures animals with snake bite! Goat 7: Doe suddenly twitching and weak. We suspected a snake, gave her Vitamin C injections and kept it in the shed hand feeding her. She recovered over the next 2 days, making us feel perhaps the Vitamin C did a lot of good and saved her from death. Amazingly another goat developed the same signs the next day, surely 2 goats can't have been bitten, that’s just getting too coincidental...so after thoroughly searching the area (somewhat sheepishly) for a nest of snakes, and we found the culprit, not a snake but a toxic plant! We removed the plant, didn't treat the doe except for removing her to the shed and feeding her some hay, and she recovered once she could no longer eat any more of the toxic plant!. So in hindsight, the one we treated "successfully with Vitamin C injection" the day before, well it wasn't the Vitamin C that cured her but the removal from access to the plant. How many cases of this do you see where the farmer never found the real cause, and attributes the cause as snake bite and the recovery to Vitamin C? I can certainly see how easy it is for the Vitamin C rumor to be perpetuated, and all in good faith too! Goat 8: Kid playing in new paddock, walking very slowly and bleeding from the gums. Although I couldn't see one, I suspected snake bite, gave Vitamin C injections. The Vitamin C injections did nothing, and she continued to deteriorate so off to the Vets. He tested the blood with the test kit yielding a strong positive result. He used Anti-venom (cost wasn't too bad as she was very small and the dose goes on body-weight)... and she made a steady improvement and recovered after 2 days. The success rate with anti-venom is very high as long as the vet can administer it early in the course.
Goat 10: Doe found quiet and reluctant to get up. No other signs. She started shaking a lot and we suspected snake bite, gave her Vitamin C injections immediately. She deteriorated over night, and lay on her side, bloating, not moving much. To the Vet, tested for snake bite, strong positive for Tiger snake. The Vet felt at this stage, chances of survival with even with anti-venom was slim so we put her down. We should not have even tried to give Vitamin C, she could have been saved if she was taken straight away. So, after all that what conclusion? We used Vitamin C 10 times for snake bite 6 lived However, when you look at it.... those 6 that lived were all goats that had no venom in their system! When you look at the ones that had venom in their system, and they were treated with Vitamin C, they all died, except 1, which only recovered because it had anti-venom as well, just in the nick of time. So the summary is, for goats that truly have received a lethal dose of brown or tiger snake venom, Vitamin C doesn't prevent nor delay the symptoms.
After a long discussion with 2 Vets now, both with natural medicine interests, we find that the same story exists for dogs, cats, sheep and calves and foals. They too often see cases brought in that have had Vitamin C used, and interestingly, despite both Vets being on the "natural side" of the medical spectrum, they both admit, that in the 60 years cumulative experience they are yet to see one success story of confirmed assistance of Vitamin C in snake bite and they themselves no longer use it. They have however seen dozens and dozens of cases in dogs where the Vitamin C has done nothing, and interestingly they have had cases where they have had to treat the abscesses formed by people giving the Vitamin C injections incorrectly. There are many a case which apparently recovers with Vitamin C injections, and these cases would have recovered anyway as they did not receive venom in their system. Without the test kit, it is impossible to prove many of these "hearsay" cases, and in fact people become quite defensive of Vitamin C and its abilities (I used to be that way myself!) but with mounting evidence now there is little case for its use in this situation. You can never "prove" all those old stories as false because they have been and gone, but listen carefully to all future stories, and you can bet your bottom dollar that those that recovered weren't envenomed.
Interestingly, a major conference was held in Sydney 2 years ago in emergency veterinary medicine featuring emergency medicine specialists, where 2 days was spent wholly on snake bite emergencies mainly in dogs and cats. It was raised the problem of Vitamin C. The major problem with it, is that often owners, like us, frequently TRY Vitamin C to see if it helps, and when it doesn't we then go to the Vet, by which time the venom has spread to such a stage that often anti-venom cant help or if it does, the recovery is much slower often requiring intensive care which, in the absence of a Medicare for animals, can become quite financially taxing. So the Vitamin C old wives tale actually kills many dogs, cats and farm animals every year by giving people false hope and thus delaying testing and correct treatment. Furthermore, there are many animals which are treated with Vitamin C at home, and when they do not respond, they are left to die a horrid death of suffering. In bold letters in the conference proceedings is has " Vitamin C has been proven to be of no benefit what so ever in treating snake bite evenomation, it merely causes intense pain at the site of injection whilst delaying the access of correct medical diagnosis and treatment. Many cases where Vitamin C has been given to a an animal by rural owners, and those pets are subsequently taken to emergency centers and survived after being given anti-venom, have had large painful abscesses form due to the Vitamin C which in some cases have required surgical drainage to be effectively treated. Furthermore, with ever-advancing ready access to the internet, and the uncensored publication of so called cures featuring "natural remedies", more and more people will be taken in by such tales and Veterinarians country wide may see more and more of the result of the naive public heeding such tragic falsities" I am embarrassed to say... we were in that category and have certainly have found that out the hard way! Jim PPS: have found published success rates for anti venom in dogs and cats, With early diagnosis and treatment, success rate varies from 75-95% depending on type of snake encountered. There are no published rates for goats, but the local Vet estimates that for those presented to him in early-moderate stages, with accurate snake identification, the success rate of treatment with anti-venom is over 80%. Also, even though all Vets obviously cannot attend all conferences, the published data on that conference is now filtering through to most GP Vets and generally most now know the situation. Return from Reducing the risk of dog snake bite to Sustainable Gardening Tips home page
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Goat 4: Found in the goat shelter, frothing at the mouth and staggering. I suspected a snake but couldn't find one. Gave her Vitamin C injections. She continued to deteriorate, and died the next morning. Found the snake next to the shed that afternoon, Tiger. The Vitamin C did nothing, perhaps may have accelerated her death due to intense pain at the injection sites.
Goat: 9 Doe eating in newly fenced paddock.... lagging behind herd and wobbly. Being a newly grazed bush-land paddock snake bite was likely..... gave Vitamin C on suspicion. She recovered uneventfully. We found out later it was tick paralysis (dried up dead tick attached to her neck) and the cydectin drench we had used the week before killed the tick, but not before it caused a little mild paralysis before it died. So Vitamin C didn't cure the goat, it was going to recover anyway due tot he death of the tick! Again, would have been easy for the non astute to attribute this apparent "cure" to the Vitamin C when in effect all it did was cause some pain in a goat that was not bitten at all!
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